Catalysts of Change

What really pushed us to finally take equity and justice seriously at the National Wildlife Federation? Hear from two people, Chanté Coleman and Les Welsh, who dedicated time and energy to this work in its earlier stages, along with their reflections on where things are now.

Speakers

Chanté Coleman – Vice President, Equity & Justice
Les Welsh – Director Conservation Partners, Northern Rockies
Kaila Drayton – VP of Operations
Nicole Litwiller – Equity and Justice Storytelling Fellow

Transcript

♫ Theme Music ♫

Chanté Coleman 
But I think this work is cyclical. And I think it's iterative. And I think we are so far now from the summer of 2020, which was really like a huge wake up call for a lot of white folks. And there perhaps have been less reminders lately, or things feel less important or whatever it is. But everyone needs to remember that our liberation is all tied up in each other's liberation. And we all have a stake in this work, and we will all benefit from it. And so it's not the time to give up now.

♫ Theme Music ♫

Kaila Drayton 
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Seeds of Culture Change, a podcast where we're discussing the National Wildlife Federation's journey towards equity and justice. I'm Kaila.

Nicole Litwiller 
And I'm Nicole.

Kaila Drayton 
And we are your co-hosts. Nicole, how is your day going?

Nicole Litwiller 
My day is going pretty well. There was a fly that was bothering me in my apartment today, but took care of it. It's, it's not gonna interrupt our podcasting time together. I was worried that there would be an annoying buzzing because, you know, they have a habit of like, getting exactly where you don't want them to be in the most annoying times. But we're all good. It's a good day,

Kaila Drayton 
And particularly at the point where you think that maybe it has passed on into fly after life. And then it it does not and does a very chaotic buzzing.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yes.

Kaila Drayton 
Before being quiet again.

Nicole Litwiller 
Like bragging, that it's still here.

Kaila Drayton 
You're like, yes, you're making me relive this entire experience.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yes. Enough about that, how are you?

Kaila Drayton 
I am doing well. I think you and I have talked about this. For me, September 1 is beginning of fall. I don't care if it's 100 degrees outside, I don't care if I'm still sweating. It is the fall season for me. And I love everything about fall. Except here's the funny thing, I'm not really a Halloween person. Like I love that other people love Halloween, I'm probably not going to get into it. But please give me all of the stews and the soups, and the chilis and the hot toddies and all of that. So I'm wondering, what is your favorite season to go into what is this season that you get most excited about?

Nicole Litwiller 
I feel like, I live in a region where every time the seasons transition, I just get really excited because it's something new that I haven't had for a while. I think though I would say fall and spring are the big two for me, because both of those seasons are just exceedingly beautiful in the Shenandoah Valley. And in the fall, we get so many shades of beautiful colors in the trees, the temperature calms down a little bit and we get to enjoy the crisp weather and drinking a warm drink outside without sweating through my clothing in about two seconds. And so I do love fall and then with spring, I love the flowers that grow and they do bring me a lot of allergies. So that's the biggest downside for that season with me but, but honestly, I'm going to sit outside for hours and stare at the trees that are blooming anyway. I don't really care,

Kaila Drayton 
Right. Pop a Claritin, you'll be fine.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yes, exactly.

Kaila Drayton 
I think that my seasons ranked in order are fall, spring, winter. And if I could put summer as the million choice I wish that there were more choices. Summers trash, and you can fight me on it. There's just there's a there are a multitude of opinions that I hold that I find that other people often do not share. But summer. Oh, it's just it's humid and it's hot. People like to go to the beach. I don't like the beach. Listen, I know this isn't a podcast about me sharing all the opinions that aren't popular, but I just need people to know. I'm very unhappy in the summer.

Nicole Litwiller 
I feel like we can talk more about this later. I do have some thoughts and questions that I would like to follow up with.

Kaila Drayton 
You're like, 'sweetie, are you still me goin' to therapy? You still, yeah? You just gotta check with your therapist real quick? Okay. Good good good.'

Nicole Litwiller 
Well, I feel like that is a great transition into our episode today because our episode is a bit of a transitions episode in general. And so, we've been talking about the founding of the conservation movement, the founding of the National Wildlife Federation. And for this episode, today, we're going to start talking about some of the earlier equity and justice efforts at the National Wildlife Federation. So to bring us kind of up to present day, what have our efforts looked like? What did they look like at its earlier stages? What do they look like now, and we're going to talk to a couple of wonderful humans, Les and Chanté, who will walk us through this conversation.

Kaila Drayton 
Before we get into it, I want to give a little bit of a trigger warning. Normally in our episodes, were speaking in generalities about what equity and justice has looked like. In this podcast, we do go a little bit more specific in sharing some anecdotes. And so I just want listeners to be aware that there is some reference to homophobia. And so please use discretion when you're listening.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yeah. And so without further ado, to the interview.

♫ Music Transition ♫

Kaila Drayton 
Welcome, everyone, to today's episode, where we're talking about catalysts of change. Today, we have Les Welsh and Chanté Coleman. So if you don't mind sharing a little bit about what you do here at NWF, your pronouns, and your favorite ice cream flavor, and Les. we'll start with you.

Les Welsh 
Sure. Thank you. My name is Les Welsh. I'm the Director of Conservation Partnerships for our affiliates in Alaska, Hawaii, California and Oregon. I'm also the Associate Director for the Pacific region of National Wildlife Federation. My pronouns are he/him/his, and my favorite ice cream right now is chocolate Chaga, which is a mushroom blended into the chocolate.

Nicole Litwiller 
Oh,

Kaila Drayton 
What?!

Nicole Litwiller 
Oh, my goodness. I did not know that existed.

Kaila Drayton 
Yeah. I feel like maybe we need to know a little bit more about- as someone who is very fond of mushrooms. Is there something that you are making yourself? It's sold somewhere, please tell.

Les Welsh 
Well, there's a vegan ice cream shop in Seattle, and they make it there. And I go there as often as I can get away with it.

Kaila Drayton 
That is amazing.

Nicole Litwiller 
I'm intrigued.

Kaila Drayton 
Yes. I love that it's Chaga mushrooms and perhaps I could make my own with different mushrooms. I might start experimenting. Chanté?

Chanté Coleman 
My name is Chanté Coleman. I'm the Vice President of Equity and Justice at the National Wildlife Federation. As someone who is deathly allergic to mushrooms. I will not be trying any mushroom ice cream. My pronouns are she/her and they/them. My favorite type of ice cream is probably, I'll have to go with chocolate chip cookie dough.

Kaila Drayton 
Classic.

Chanté Coleman 
Just I mean, there's cookie dough in it. I would be eating that anyway. Might as well like surround it with some ice cream.

Kaila Drayton 
Some frozen dairy.

Chanté Coleman 
Yeah, sure.

Nicole Litwiller 
It's never gonna let you down.

Chanté Coleman 
Exactly.

Kaila Drayton 
Nicole, what's your go to order?

Nicole Litwiller 
I love a good mint chocolate chip. I think that's usually what I crave most times. Either that or yeah, chocolate chip cookie dough. The the two, the big two. What about you, Kaila?

Kaila Drayton 
I love mint chocolate chip, but I'm very picky about that chips. They can't be waxy. I want them to melt. Actually, I'd prefer them to be like, not pieces of chocolate at all, but maybe cookie-ish. Okay, so let me go through my ice cream flavors that I don't want. No, I think coffee ice cream is usually like my go to.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yes, it's a good one. Well, I'm now inspired to maybe start a whole podcast about ice cream. Because I love ice cream. It seems like a great topic to talk about. However, that's not what we're here to talk about today. We have invited you two, Les and Chanté, to share a bit about some of the earlier stages of NWF's equity and justice work. So I would love to dive into that conversation with our first question. And I'm curious, Les, we can start with you. What was it for you that made you realize that we needed to more intentionally center equity and justice at NWF?

Les Welsh 
It was my first week meeting with my executive director. He was based up in Anchorage and I'm in Seattle. I went out to dinner with him and one colleague. And you know, we're having a casual conversation and they asked me if I was married and had kids. And I said Well, this was in 2010, and I said 'well I would be, but it's not legal to be married right now in state.' And it froze the conversation. Kind of an EF Hutton speaks kind of moment. And the next day I was called into the office. And I was told, the door closed, and I was told, 'you know, the team you've joined, they're kind of a rough and tumble bunch. There's a lot of jokes about women and gay people, and how are you going to handle that?' And I said, 'Well, that's not actually my problem. That's your problem. How are you gonna handle it? I'm gonna handle it just fine.' And it began a conversation. And you know, I went home, and I thought, boy, I'm either in the wrong spot, or I need help change the organization. And as it happened a few weeks later, Dan Chu, who was our Vice President of affiliate relations at the time, organized a group, he invited folks from around the organization to form our first Diversity, Equity and Inclusion staff team. And that was 26 of us. And we pulled that together, and started meeting, hearing each other's stories, and how we can help NWF move forward and change from a reputation of being just a bunch of old white hunter guys to more representative of America, and our citizens and residents. And it started there and so I stuck around and tried to help out.

Nicole Litwiller 
I really appreciate you sharing your story with us last. Yeah, I feel like there's so much wrapped up there with your own experiences tied up within why you felt drawn to this equity and justice work. And I think that's probably a fairly common experience. And something that can probably be pretty painful and, and challenging along the way. So so thank you for both sharing that story with us, and also for sticking with NWF through all the challenges along the way. I'm really grateful. And yeah, Chanté I'll pass it over to you.

Chanté Coleman 
Yeah. Thanks, Nicole. So Les, it's so interesting to hear you share that in a recorded space. Because you, you know, as you and I have gotten to know each other, we started getting to know each other what, seven, six or seven years ago, you've told me these stories as a part of, you know, growing our relationship, really understanding the history and the narrative of what's happened at NWF. And I feel like these stories are so important to capture. And so I'm, I just want to echo Nicole's gratitude for you for sharing that so that we know the foundations of this work and where it came from. Like I didn't know about the Dan Chu, getting books together on the committee thing, or maybe I hadn't heard it in a while. So just a lot of gratitude there. Yeah, so similar experience, I guess I can speak to when I applied to work at the National Wildlife Federation for the field director position at the Choose Clean Water Coalition. That was in, I applied in 2015. And I did my regular cover letter resume, had a phone screen. And they were really interested because the Green 2.0 Report had just come out of like, what are you gonna do on DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion. So I was getting ready for my like panel interview, and I was calling in from San Diego, and everyone else was in Annapolis in our Mid-Atlantic Regional Center. And so you know, I'm like, dressed in a suit jacket with a nice shirt under yoga pants from the waist down, just really comfortable living that Zoom life. But when, I was already nervous, and then when the meeting opened up, there were like, eight people in the room. And every single person was white, who was interviewing me that day. And in the middle of that, they asked me a question about how I was going to like, work on diversity at the coalition at NWF. And I said, 'Well, I mean, a good step for you all to start working on this would be to maybe hire me. And then I can like, think of some ways that we can work on this.' I didn't want it to be extracted, and like, you know, give a bunch of ideas during the interview. But it really gave me a sense of, you know, who I was going to be working with, you know, the fact that diversity was really lacking at the National Wildlife Federation. In all levels. I mean, you could see it from executive leadership, all the way down to to the regional centers. And I think that's a place where we have grown. And it's not just about diversity. There were a lot of issues back then that I think Les and I could tell a lot of stories and Kaila probably you too. But one moment, I remember. And Les this was right when you and I were starting, you were already co leading the equity and justice work with Amanda. And I was starting to be brought into the fold and there was an executive leadership retreat that was being planned. And the invitations had already gone out like the agenda had already been scoped. And I got a late invitation after bringing up that it seemed to me that every single person who was invited to that meeting was white. And when I flagged that for a leader at that time, they extended me a last minute invitation. And I said, you know, I don't want to be tokenized I don't want to be invited just to have a person of color in the room. So I would like a role in the meeting and a clear purpose as to why I'm gonna be there. And everything move forward without those things being established. And so I declined the invitation, I didn't go to the meeting. And what that forced was for a bunch of white people to go sit in a room and talk about equity and justice with each other without representation. And I think that was a pretty critical moment for me in realizing what an uphill battle we had. And also, one of the first times I really spoke truth to power, because I had that conversation with someone who was a vice president at the time.

Kaila Drayton 
Thank you both for sharing your stories. I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about NWF's early attempts at equity and justice, what that looked like, and particularly the challenges that both of you experienced, and Les, we'll start with you.

Les Welsh 
You know, when Dan Chu gathered the staff together, there were 27, 26-27 of us. And even in that representation, there were very few staff of color, I think I was the only LGBTQ staff in that mix we maybe had one or two at the most other gay or lesbian or trans staff. And, but the stories that came out, people were so passionate about, trying to find ways to include their voice and have more people that look like them and have the organization reflect all of us. It became quite a powerful thing. And as it grew, board members started stepping forward with stories of their children that were transitioning, or their family member that was in a biracial relationship and how they felt like they were kind of coming out of the closet to talk to- this opportunity to talk to people that really demonstrated the need. What happened after that is that NWF went through a reduction in force. And we lost all but two of us in that team at the time. And it was me and a lovely staff person that was East Indian. And we worked with Dan, Dan was getting ready to leave. So he had found some funding for us through the Quixote Foundation that no longer exists. And they funded us for a year to see what we could do. And unfortunately, soon after that, the other colleague that was helping me carry this she left as well. So it was just me and the funder for a little while. And our CEO at the time guided us to set up a steering committee, which was all of our vice presidents essentially, at the time. And they had a hard time coming to the table. And when they came to the table, they had a hard time knowing what to talk about. They were all white, mostly men. And were like, 'why are we here on busy,' it was kind of the feeling. Meanwhile, the funder said, 'look, let's set up some trainings, and we want to make sure that your board and staff make these trainings.' I think we did six around the country. And at the end of the day, a lot of staff attended and got a lot out of it. But at the end of the day, we could not get our then CEO, or more than I think there were five board members that attended. And the funder was like, 'Look, we we really need your CEO to attend.' And the response from the CEO was, 'I don't need that I already know this stuff. I don't need it.' Which is kind of classic for white professional men in higher places, sometimes at least 15 years ago it was. And so we were a little stuck. But we went back to the foundation for more money. And they said, 'You know, I should tell you, we get a lot of feedback from the community. They're like, why are you funding NWF for this? You know, a bunch of old white guys.' And they said, 'Well, if we can move the needle with NWF, we feel like we can help change the whole conservation movement.' And so they stuck with us for several more years of funding.

Chanté Coleman 
It's so fascinating to hear Les, because I remember when- so when I was still at Choose Clearn Water, and I was doing work there to do capacity building for diversity, equity, inclusion for all of our coalition members. And Collin called me and said, 'Hey,' and this was you know, after that other CEO left and Collin came on board, like 'hey, come, come help us with our with our DEI work internally at NWF. Like we need you.' And I was like, okay, and he invited me to that like vice president space that you were in, where that stickiness was still there. Like we were working with the Raben Group. And the Raben Group was like, 'we need to start you all with a business case,' because everyone on that team was so business oriented. They thought the best approach would be helping the vice presidents at that point understand why DEI was good for NWF as a business. And so that was really our first like statement. Like it was very, like business money focused. And, you know, it helped I think it helped them understand why this was good. And once they were like 'okay, We get it. This, this seems to make sense.' They didn't really want to do it anymore. It didn't seem like there was much interest in that group in carrying the work. Les to your point, they're, quote unquote, busy, right, like they didn't have time. And so that was when a big shift happened to move the work into a Staff Committee. Like not staff that had a bunch of positional power, but staff who were really in the organization could see the issues and empower that group to move on things. And that was our first Equity and Justice Steering Committee that Les I co-led with Amanda McKnight, who used to be our Chief Administration and People Officer. So I think the lesson there is getting the power to do the work into the hands of people who are actually going to do it is really key. Because if we had kept the power with the VPs, and work with them, it wouldn't have gone anywhere.

Kaila Drayton 
Well, and it sounds like for a long time, NWF tried to fight white supremacy culture with white supremacy culture.

Nicole Litwiller 
Right.

Kaila Drayton 
And I think that there are times where I see that folks might still try that. But the thought about trying to address DEI by writing a business case and a budget, and then having the top folks at the organization be responsible for it. I'm glad we changed our tactics.

Chanté Coleman 
Yeah, exactly. Well, and I think also, interestingly, is you know, the top folks at that time, they were making a lot of money. And then you have these, you know, directors and managers coming in saying, 'we'll do it, we'll carry this work, because it's really important to us,' and everyone has their full time jobs. And they're volunteering on top of their full time jobs to do this equity and justice work. Like Les and I were volunteering our time, like I was running an entire coalition. And it took so long for us to convince the leader to hire someone to do this work. And I think that was another like catalyst moment when we were in a board meeting. And I was still directing Choose Clean Water. Les, I don't think you were at this, I'm not sure if you were at this board meeting. And I was presenting in front of the DEIJ committee of the board all the work we were doing in that moment in time, I think this was in like 2016. And I was just running through this like slide deck of everything we are working on as volunteer staff committees. And Shiva, who's one of our board members raised his hand at the end and, and it was like perfect timing, because Collin had just walked into the room and Shiva raised his hand and said, 'Aren't you still director of one of our coalition's like, how do you have time to do all of this?' And I said, 'that's a really great question Shiva. Like, I think it's really time that we hire someone to do this and pay that person to lead this work.' And in that moment, Collin agreed in front of the board to make that change. So we wrote a job description, got that out in the world, I initially wasn't going to apply for it. And that's a whole other story. But I ended up applying for it in the end and got the job. And, you know, now here we are. We have a podcast, there's six people doing this work that are paid full time, Nicole, you're one of them and our team, we have a team that's actually carrying this work. And so it's really wonderful to feel like we have capacity, energy, and just really thoughtful folks who are being actually compensated to do this really important change effort within the organization.

Nicole Litwiller 
I really appreciate hearing some of these earlier stage efforts. And it's so clear how the work from that stage has just like rippled and expanded over time. And each step along the way, has opened the door for deeper equity and justice efforts to take place and to follow and for more people to have an influence on that work. And so it's really fascinating for me, especially as somebody who is, who's newer at this organization to hear about some of those reflections on some of the earlier efforts. And I'm curious if there is maybe a moment or two moments in some of these stories, where you both realized, 'oh, okay, NWF is like actually taking this seriously and it's not just for the image.' So I'm wondering Chanté, could we start with you? Do you have a moment that made you realize like, we're serious about this?

Chanté Coleman 
Well, I was that I was kind of sharing that moment in my last answer, I think around like hiring that position. I think that's one of them. Les you have one that's coming to mind? That'll give me a chance to think for a minute.

Les Welsh 
Well, I do want to underscore the one point that you made because we apparently have been through early nascent attempts at diversifying our staff at least and they'd hire a consultant, it would go on the shelf, and it would sleep and gather dust. And it wasn't until Collin came on board, I give him a lot of credit for recognizing the need and moving beyond the tokenism that we were seeing of bringing, you know, like, 'ask the person of color well how to do it, ask the gay person how to do it.' And moving beyond that a little bit. But it was really the commitment to fund it. Somebody that lives and breathes this stuff. That's that moved it from all talk and paper to action. To at least beginning the action.

Chanté Coleman 
Yeah, the money aspect is huge. I think a lot of organizations think they can just put some people as volunteers behind this, and that it'll happen magically. And the reality is, you have to put your money where your mouth is. And I think the steps that Kaila has been able to take around our investment request process internally to ensure that we're investing in programs and initiatives led by bipoc BIPOC staff, as well as programs and initiatives that center environmental justice and equity and justice is huge. And the fact that the organization pretty readily went with what Kaila was proposing in terms of the criteria, I think that shows a readiness level. That means we are serious, I think when it comes down to money, that's when you really know. The equity and justice budget has grown over time, I think it could be a lot more than it is, and it's enough to pay salaries for six staff to work on this full time. And I, I don't really hear about a lot of other organizations who have teams as large as ours, and are investing as much as we are into it. And I think it directly results in accomplishing the cultural change that that we have. And that's not to say that we've reached, we've reached the end, and we've done all the things. And in fact, I think that we're experiencing some pretty serious regressions as an organization right now in terms of our culture. And that's something that we're going to need a significant intervention in, and that we need our leaders like Collin and Mustafa to pay very, very close attention to and be responsive to. And if we don't, then we're going to find ourselves back where we were six or seven years ago. And that's just the reality of where we are.

Kaila Drayton 
I could not agree more with you Chanté. Things feel really scary right now, I'll be honest, I think that we have come so far as an organization and, you know, comparatively have made huge strides within the environmental movement. But folks seem a little less interested in pushing it along. Chanté you have mentioned a little bit about your team, but I'm wondering if you could go into more detail about how you formed the team and some examples of the work that you're holding.

Chanté Coleman  
Yeah, that's a great question, Kaila. So we are a team of six. So we were a team of one about three years ago. And the first person that I brought on to the Equity and Justice Team in a formal role is Anna Brunner. She is an amazing human who's just so kind and thoughtful and intentional around this work. And she has spent the last couple of years building out what it looks like to communicate about equity and justice internally and externally at NWF. And she has brought on two folks under her who report to her and one of them is Nicole, who is leading, co-leading this podcast with you Kaila. And Nicole, you've done such a wonderful job on our storytelling project. You know, we have done so much and we've started to lose track of all the things that we've done, which Les, it's so great that you're here because you're sharing things that I've forgot you shared with me before that I wasn't around for. So it's so wonderful that we're able to capture that and Nicole, that you had the foresight to think through a podcast where other people can tell their stories, as well as you're writing a report too and so we're going to have it captured in writing for us we can share with, you know, our partners, with funders, with other people who are interested and willing to do the work. Yeah. And then Elizabeth Lillard is also on our team, she came over to us from Women in Conservation Leadership, where she learned a lot about gender equity. And now her role is really striking a balance right now. So we used to have this kind of grassroots committee of staff who were leading this work. And now we have like a national Equity and Justice Team. So there's a little bit of disconnect between the national team, our regional centers and our departments. And Elizabeth is really putting a lot of thought into how to rebuild that connectivity. She also kind of holds our roadmap, which includes all of our different tactics and strategies and where we're headed. And she provides oversight into that, which is really wonderful. She's very strategic and very visionary in that sense. We also just had an Administrative Assistant, which is so helpful. Rachel Flores, she is amazing. She's been with us for two months now. And I didn't realize how much scheduling I was doing and things that were keeping me from focusing on the bigger picture. And then Kasandra Richardson, she was at NWF previously on another team on our digital team and she's come over now to focus on how we celebrate cultural holidays and some other communications aspects to the work. So it's- and I think the big, the big piece of this is the thought partnership. It's really wonderful to have a team that brings different perspectives and ways of thinking. Each person holds different identities and different ways they move through this work. And so I learn so much every day. We are not perfect. We're constantly learning and growing. And we're able to do that with each other. And I'm just so grateful for the team that we have.

♫ Music Transition ♫

Kaila Drayton 
Les, earlier, you mentioned that when you first came on board at NWF, you were working with a quote unquote, rough and tumble group of folks. I'm wondering if you can talk about how that's changed or if it's changed, and then how you apply equity and justice to the work that you do.

Les Welsh 
Yeah, thanks Kaila, it has changed. People have worked to grow and expand their understanding, and some more eagerly than others, to help their affiliates come along in the same direction. You know, a few years ago, we had affiliates whose boards wouldn't let them speak on climate. And we really had to work to bring them along on that issue. Right. To some of us are very basic and important issue. And DEIJ has been somewhat similar to that. And certainly helping both our team, the DCPs (Directors of Conservation Partnerships), and our affiliates get their head around an understanding what justice means and why it's not mission drift, and why it's a big part of the important work that NWF is doing. And helping them understand that that spot where you start turning to your BIPOC staff or your gay and lesbian staff for representation, and have them volunteer and do the work. So it's slow. And I think there's some backsliding and forward motion over time. But I think that that rough and tumble team has come a long way. There's been turnover, there's been trainings, there's been real effort. And some of that is dependent on where they're located. Because out in the middle west, it's predominantly white folks, that they're engaged within the conservation community. And they'll, they'll tell us like, 'well, we don't have people here.' And I and others are like, 'well, actually you do. There's Indigenous people in your community. There are gay and lesbian people in your community, there is BIPOC people in your community, and you're not seeing them. Go to the university, you know, go go to other community events where you can interact and start building bridges.' And so that growth is happening, sometimes a lot slower than we want it to. But nice to see it happening nonetheless. And as far as your question about how would informs my work, I think that as I've done this work, it's grown my awareness is as well. And my own unconscious biases, bringing those into consciousness. And, as Chanté probably got sick of me saying early on, you know, it's personal work, you have to do it to work personally before you can roll it out professionally. And that's where a lot of the resistance is. You know, I've had folks say, 'Look, I don't do touchy feely.' Well, okay. You don't have to be touchy feely, but you do need to kind of recognize your biases, and learn how to manage those and put those aside and build bridges and be respectful and listen. So for me, I think it's a lifelong learning process, I keep discovering that there's more assumptions that I've made culturally that I wasn't aware of, and every one that I become aware of opens the door to more.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. Les, I think that you kind of answered my next question. So I'm just going to direct the next question straight to you Chanté. Kind of building off of what Les has shared, how do you feel like that leaning into these equity and justice values as an organization has impacted your own personal life?

Chanté Coleman 
It's such a good question. In so many ways. I think I have higher expectations for the white people I surround myself with, in my personal life. I expect, you know, white folks that I'm in relationship with to Les's point do the personal work, because I know it's possible. I've seen what's possible. I've seen people learn and grow and change. And I know that people can do that. And I want that for the people in my life. Sometimes I feel a little bad for for my fiance, Nathan. He is white, and I have very high expectations for what he should be doing and how he should be moving through things. And he most of the time really lives up to those. And I think also, there's like a, there's been a shift in my mindset around just success in general on what success means. I think white supremacy culture teaches us that, you know, we have to achieve something or win something or you know, to be successful, like we have to do something and, and I think this work has taught me, actually, we can learn something. And that's really powerful. We can just be, we can just be humans and be in relationship with one another and build community. And that's a win, like, that's good work. And we can rest. And rest is a part of this work, of work in general. I think if we look at work holistically, it has to include rest and taking care of ourselves and taking care of one another. So I would say that those are some of the things that I've learned. So I think equity and justice has been core to who I am for my entire life. And I think this journey with NWF just continues to bring that to light and solidify that for me.

Kaila Drayton 
Thank you for your sharing that. It's been wonderful to share space with the both of you today. I'm wondering if there's anything that you want to leave listeners with, any final closing thoughts? And Les, I'll start with you.

Les Welsh 
Oh, boy.

Kaila Drayton
No pressure.

Les Welsh
You know, I think I have to circle back to the personal work. I think it's the most important point I can make. If we're not, you know, in our white supremacy culture, we're not taught that that's okay. We're not taught to bring our full selves to work. And to Chanté's point about the spiritual components and the need for rest in balance to this capitalist commercial culture that we're trying to fit into while we try to save the life support systems of the planet, I think it has to come back to self. It has to come back to recognizing where you stand, what community you're in how you can link with the communities you're surrounded with how to unlearn the things that we've been taught by the colonial culture, so that we can learn anew all the people and resources and beauty and power that we can build together. And if we can't do that, personally, we're probably not going to succeed at it professionally. So my hope is that we continue in that vein in our work, that we continue to remember that we're all humans walking one step at a time. And that together, if we open that up, we can take it further.

Kaila Drayton 
Beautiful, thank you.

Chanté Coleman 
That was beautiful. I don't have anything better than that. I mean, I loved all that Les. Makes me miss working with you so much. I just don't think we can rest on our laurels. I don't think we can take the fact that all this has happened for granted. And we have to keep, we have to keep pushing as an organization, as individuals who are showing up to this work, and in a way that, you know, we're taking care of ourselves and practicing rest and all that. But I just see, you know, some alarming things happening right before my eyes that I think we should be really, really paying very, very close attention to otherwise we're going to experience a lot of backsliding. So I hate to end it on like somewhat of a negative note. But I think this work is cyclical and I think it's iterative and I think we are so far now from the summer of 2020, which was really like a huge wake up call for a lot of white folks. And there perhaps have been less reminders lately, or things feel less important or whatever it is. But everyone needs to remember that our liberation is all tied up in each other's liberation. And we all have a stake in this work, and we will all benefit from it. And so it's not the time to give up now. It's like keep finding that pathway, right? Keep finding that keep finding a way to resist. And resistance is not always negative. Resistance, just like Pride can be super positive, and super celebratory and fun. But no matter what you do find a pathway to resist, there should always be active resistance to the status quo to white supremacy culture, because if we're not doing that, then we're just moving backwards. So find those pathways; find that resistance.

♫ Music Transition ♫

Nicole Litwiller 
I really appreciate hearing from Chanté and Les about some of their experiences with this work early on. Because, you know, as somebody who is so much newer to this organization, it feels so different now, which is both exciting and a little daunting, maybe. But yeah, I'm curious Kaila, after having that interview, what are you feeling? What are you thinking about?

Kaila Drayton 
Yeah, I'll be honest, this was a little bit of a tough conversation for me, just in reflecting after the interview about where we are currently, with equity and justice in the organization and feeling like the current moment, it feels like I'm getting questioned by white colleagues like 'why are you still pushing so hard? Why are you still pushing so hard for changes? Why aren't you celebrating how far we've come?' And so I think that this episode, kind of very nicely dovetails with the interview that we did with Anita Singh, where she said, You know, 'I, you know, I'm kind of new to this organization and I point out things that are wrong, and people tell me to just appreciate where we are.' And so thinking about how to both celebrate how far we've come and still demand change, still recognize that things are still really challenging for folks who hold marginalized identities. And just because we've made changes in the right direction doesn't mean that this is where we stop. What came up for you?

Nicole Litwiller 
Yeah, well, just just to respond briefly to what you just shared. I feel like that's a really great example of holding the both/and that I think we can do better with living into as an organization. We can be proud of the things that have been accomplished and acknowledge how far we need to go yet. And those two things aren't in competition with one another. So yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up. I think one of the things that stuck with me from the interview, were some of the comments around the concern about backsliding. And one of the things that I've been thinking about since having this conversation is that I don't think we'll ever get to a point where equity and justice becomes the norm. I really hope so that's, I mean, that's the dream. And, the norms all around us, as individuals, as a society, as an organization, are telling us that white supremacy culture, heteronormativity, all of these different systems of oppression are the norm. And so if we're not actively working against them, the default is going to be to slide back into those norms. And so it takes, this is both like a personal thing and a community effort, that it takes intentional steps daily, to recommit ourselves to this work. And I think that's been standing out to me from some of the things that Chanté was sharing.

Kaila Drayton 
And I think, too, on the theme of backsliding, it's interesting to hear how long NWF has been at this work. And like, thanks to people of color, and people who have who hold marginalized identities, you know, we have been at the forefront of pushing this work. And we, you know, had different attempts that didn't really take a foothold. And then, all of a sudden, the summer of 2020, the world was on fire. Right. And so with the murder of George Floyd, it was like, all the white folks, and especially the white folks in leadership at the organization sat up straight. And it was like, I couldn't tell if the intentions were coming from truly wanting to do equity and justice work and truly wanting to fight against white supremacy culture, or were we just too embarrassed to not be a part of this movement towards anti racism. And I guess the intention doesn't matter. It's led to some really significant changes around the organization. But I, I think that we would be remiss if we didn't mention 2020, and the murder of George Floyd as being a huge catalyst for the equity and justice work that we're doing. And that's where I get a little bit. I don't know, emotional reflective, in feeling like now we're going into fall of 2022. And it feels like we have just lost momentum. Like, equity and justice is a nice thing to do on the side, but it doesn't feel as mainstream as it had been for the past 18 months to two years. And it's definitely something that I've noticed. And you can't help but wonder, has there not been enough headlines? Do we have to see the sacrifice of more Black bodies before we can ramp up this work again? You know, I don't know.

Nicole Litwiller 
Yeah, it shouldn't take murderers for white people to care. Right? It's yeah, it's work that needs to matter to us, intrinsically, I think. And that's part of the journey is like figuring out why it matters to you personally, I think. And, and that's really speaking to white folks, especially right now, like, that's important for us to figure out, like, we need to be able to articulate why this matters to us, and why, why we care so that we can be in this journey for the long run. So it is this ongoing journey that we have to have the stamina for.

Kaila Drayton 
Yeah. So I think you're exactly right, Nicole. I feel like oftentimes, we may be try to apply equity and justice in the professional realm without first applying it to ourselves, personally. And so I'm wondering if listeners are reflecting on where they are in their equity and justice journey. For all of you listening, have you been doing the work to identify your own biases, or to apply the work to yourself? Or has it just been kind of a professional checkbox. Or, or even more than a checkbox, you might really be trying to instill these values into your work, but if you really don't look at yourself, first, I think that it's a huge stumbling block, right? So for me, you know, I'm a Black woman and white supremacy culture still shows up for me. If there were no white people left on earth, there would still be white supremacy culture, it still exists, whether white people are in the room or not. So for me, it shows up around perfectionism, right, and wanting to do my very best and I'm really scared to make a mistake. If I make a mistake, what is it going to cost me? And so that is a lot of the work that I have left to do. Again, Nicole is looking at me like sweetie, when's your next therapy appointment? Yeah? Mmkay. Don't worry, my therapist is going to listen to this. So I'm wondering Nicole, do you have anything that you would encourage listeners to reflect on?

Nicole Litwiller 
Yeah. Well, while you were talking and proposing some of those questions, I feel like I was just thinking about my own journey, and what have been some of the different stages in my own journey. And I think there have been times when I'm just in my own head, where I get really anxious about this. And some of those perfectionism tendencies come up around this work specifically, like, 'Am I doing a good enough job? Am I being a good enough ally?' It's all these good enough questions that often come up for me. I'm sure many listeners probably resonate with that too. Working on it in therapy, you know, that's what I got to do.

Kaila Drayton 
Go to therapy everyone!

Nicole Litwiller 
Yes, definitely. But I feel like the times that I have been able to be in community with people who share the same identity with me who are also on this journey, and we can work through some of these things together, have been so fruitful, and healing for me. And I just really want to encourage folks to find those pockets of community because this isn't a journey that you can do on your own. It, it can feel so isolating. And I think that's what white supremacy wants us to feel. But when you find people who are also committed to this journey, and you can ask some of those hard questions too, and talk about the things that you're really struggling with on your own journey, that's when it can feel freeing, and be like, 'Oh, I don't actually have to hold all this by myself.' And, and I think finding those people are the moments that I reflect on in my journey as being significant turning points for me, and having significant growth and, and just feeling a whole lot more free. And like I'm not holding the world by myself. Yeah. So I guess I would just maybe encourage folks to think about who are the people around you that you can be in community with on this journey and that can hold you accountable and that you can hold accountable and that you can share space with.

Kaila Drayton 
Find a White Supremacy Culture Battle Buddy, is what I'm hearing the call to action be. Yeah, great.

Nicole Litwiller 
I love that. Find your battle buddy.

Kaila Drayton 
As Nicole mentioned, this is a bit of a transition episode. And so next week, please join us as we start talking about where the National Wildlife Federation currently is in its equity and justice journey. Thank you and goodbye!

♫ Outro Music ♫

Nicole Litwiller 
This podcast is created and hosted by Kaila Drayton and Nicole Litwiller. It is produced by Nicole Litwiller. Stephen Angello is our Editor and Audio Engineer. All the music you hear throughout the podcast is composed by Luke Litwiller. Thank you to the Equity and Justice team and many others within the National Wildlife Federation for your support in the creation of this podcast, and for your work towards equity and justice. If you have any reflections or comments you'd like to share with us, please send an email to seedsofculturechange@nwf.org. Please visit www.nwf.org and click the donate button if you'd like to financially support the National Wildlife Federation's work. And don't forget to like comment and subscribe so that other agents of organizational change can find this podcast. Thanks for listening now go plant some seeds of change.

♫ Outro Music ♫

Nicole Litwiller 
Byeeeee. I feel like you're always the one that gets the bonus end-episode content. I have to-

Kaila Drayton 
You got it! It's all you.

Nicole Litwiller 
Well that's not good though. It's just 'byeeee.'

Kaila Drayton 
Yeah! Well it's you now. It's you.

Nicole Litwiller 
I guess.

Show Notes

Contact: seedsofculturechange@nwf.org

About NWF’s equity and justice work

Green 2.0 Report

White supremacy culture

My Grandmother’s Hands by Resmaa Menakem (This has been an incredibly valuable book with lots of embodied practices for Nicole’s journey - especially when read/processed with her “white supremacy culture battle buddies.”)